Michelle Zauner Is Japanese Breakfast—But at What Cost?

Michelle Zauner is in limbo. After years of nonstop motion—writing the bestselling memoir Crying in H Mart, adapting it for the screen, touring the world, and moving to Korea—she’s switching gears. Her latest album as Japanese Breakfast, For Melancholy Brunettes (and Sad Women), ditches her previous record’s shine for something moodier. To mark its release, she and designer Sandy Liang hop on a call to swap notes on perfectionism, self-preservation, and the eternal struggle of wanting it all.

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SATURDAY 6:15 PM MARCH 8, 2025 PARIS

SANDY LIANG: It’s my first time interviewing somebody, and I feel like, because I genuinely want to catch up with you, it’s a fun way to do it.

MICHELLE ZAUNER: [Laughs] I know, it’s sad that the only way we can talk is—

LIANG: A scheduled Zoom. Where are you?

ZAUNER: I’m in Paris! It so happens that my friend, who I got really close to in Korea and is the star of my music video for “Orlando in Love,” also does fashion PR for Acne Studios and invited me to their event. The French translation of my book just came out and also my husband’s birthday was last week, so we wrapped it all into one big trip.

LIANG: Wow. So you’re very French right now.

ZAUNER: I also found this little boutique that only sells 19th-century

clothing, so I’m going there after this. 

LIANG: That’s so cool. Wait, Dorian, are we going to have service in the

Holland Tunnel?

DORIAN BOOTH: Yeah.

ZAUNER: Where are you off to? 

LIANG: Oh my god, this is so cheesy. We’re going to the American Dream Mall.

ZAUNER: What is that?

LIANG: It’s a huge mall in New Jersey. It has roller coasters and a water park. It’s crazy. But we’re going because my grandpa passed away last week. Bummer.

ZAUNER: Oh, I’m sorry to hear that. 

LIANG: It’s very sad, so we’re just trying to take my grandma out and keep her busy so she’s not just sitting at home. We’re going to do a bunch of cheesy stuff at the mall with my

baby.

ZAUNER: That’s really sweet. I don’t know how much you want to talk about that but—

LIANG: No, no, no. This is about you. 

ZAUNER: It’s about you, too. It’s not interesting if someone is just asking me questions. But yeah, I’m 36 now and I was really excited to talk to someone who’s close in age to me, but clearly has so much tenacity and passion in her career. What was that negotiation like for you, wanting to have a family? Because it was very much on my mind when I was working on this record.

LIANG: Well, I’ve never been a baby person or ever thought about having a kid. I think just being with Dorian, the idea of making a baby with him—I played a lot of Sims growing up, and I’ve always been fascinated by the idea of two people being so in love with each other that they can create another human.

ZAUNER: You’re just imagining those two lumps in the bed.

LIANG: Yes. [Laughs] You click on the bed and one of the options is “WooHoo,” and then they go crazy.

ZAUNER: You just really wanted to WooHoo Dorian. [Laughs]

LIANG: Literally. But yeah, I spent my entire twenties devoted to work, so in my early thirties, I decided that it was time for us.

ZAUNER: You didn’t have anxiety about your work suffering? My friend, who just got pregnant, is a painter and we were talking about it and she was like, “Are you more worried about not being a good mother or not being a good artist?” Which I thought was such a horrifying question.

LIANG: I think about that stuff under the surface, but I try to not let myself get wrapped up in it because you’re going to live the answer. “What will my career look like once I have a baby?” If I really thought about that question, it might’ve stopped me. I’m at the point in my life where I’m going to do what I want, and if my work suffers a little bit because of that, then that’s just going to be a part of my journey. What are you thinking as we’re in our thirties and doctors are telling us, “Oh, you’re”—what’s the word?

ZAUNER: Geriatric.

LIANG: Yeah.

ZAUNER: [Laughs] You’re living by your mantra so deeply that you’ve not even allowed yourself to remember that word.

LIANG: I can’t operate that way. I also have a really hard time going to work and being productive when I’m not happy.

ZAUNER: That’s crazy. You and I are like opposites.

LIANG: Really? Tell me how. 

ZAUNER: I’ve always been a very anxious, high-strung, melancholic person, and I think of melancholy as this kind of anticipatory mourning of the life that’s passing you by. This record reminds me a lot of that Kate Bush song “This Woman’s Work,” because I was thinking about this anticipatory mourning of who I will be as an artist once I become a mother. But then I think about all of these great women artists that sacrificed having children to devote themselves so thoroughly to their work, and how a lot of men don’t have to even consider that negotiation. It feels so unfair.

LIANG: I can heavily relate to anticipatory mourning because my whole career is centered on nostalgia and mourning my childhood. It’s something that I’ve never gotten over—I poke at the bruise and that gives me energy somehow. Now that I’ve become a mom, I’m constantly mourning and trying to preserve time. It sounds strange, but I see him growing—

ZAUNER: No, I feel that.

LIANG: Once you have a baby, your days are so regimented; they go by so quickly. I see my grandparents getting older, I see my parents getting older, and I’m already thinking about my own death and being sad about that, even though I could just be present and choose to be happy now. But ever since getting married and hitting these “milestones” in life, I’ve also been obsessed with scrapbooking—I want to preserve every moment. Also, making a collection is like me scrapbooking my life, and I feel like maybe that is the same for you, making your albums.

ZAUNER: Absolutely. I think of it as an archive and it really helps me creatively to think that way, because sometimes when I get really self-conscious or down on myself for what I’ve made—when I feel like it could have been better—I try to remind myself, “This is just who you are in this moment. You did your best and you committed a certain amount of time to this, and that’s what creative work is.” Like when I wrote my book, after five years of working very diligently, I was so disappointed with the results. I imagined it being this really exceptional thing, and I had landed five steps below where I wanted to be as a writer. Ultimately, I always try to remind myself, “This is just your archive. This is the best you can do at 26. This is the best you can do at 30.”

LIANG: Wait, you just helped me so much, hearing you say that and knowing that other people deal with this too, because we’re perfectionists innately. But it’s so important to be kind to yourself. I was listening to this podcast and they were talking about how people’s biggest regrets are when they’re not kind enough to themselves.

ZAUNER: My entire inner monologue is always just like, “You stupid cunt. Why did you do that?” [Laughs] I don’t think I’ve ever said a nice thing to myself.

LIANG: I can’t believe that you felt that way about Crying in H Mart, because, I mean, I don’t need to tell you how amazing and life-changing that book was for so many people. I read it in one sitting and I was just sobbing.

ZAUNER: Oh, my gosh.

LIANG: I’d never read a book that made me feel that type of way about my relationship with my mom. 

ZAUNER: That means a lot to me. 

LIANG: The one thing that I take away from your book—and it’s so silly—but the part where your mom had the boots that she broke in for you. I feel like that says it all.

ZAUNER: That feels like such an Asian mom thing.

LIANG: Yes, yes, yes. Do you have role models or women you look up to?

ZAUNER: For sure. I got to meet Karen O, my hero, and she has very sage rock-star advice where it’s just like, “If you feel fucking pissed off, trash that green room.” [Laughs] But yeah, she met me at a time when I was super burnt out and she was like, “Girl, you have to learn how to say no to stuff because that is going to be one of the most powerful words you have.” My whole career, I’ve just always said yes, so I’m constantly feeling like the second I say no, all of my opportunities are going to vanish. She’s like, “Sometimes you’ll get bigger opportunities because you’re more exclusive of a person.” I hope that she’s fucking right about that. [Laughs] I also really look up to Carol Lim, who runs Opening Ceremony. She’s a perfect example of someone who’s both a businesswoman and a creative and a mother and a mature wonderful person, but also so youthful and so fun. Every time I’m near her I’m like, “She’s really got it figured out.”

LIANG: I need to call her immediately. 

ZAUNER: You do. She’s so down to earth and she’s had a similar path to you, so it would be interesting to talk to someone who’s maybe 10, 15 years ahead.

LIANG: Yeah, sometimes you just need to see it in front of you to give yourself the confidence that you can do it too.

ZAUNER: Yeah.

LIANG: So I was reading about your album, and you talk about confronting the narcissism that it takes to be an artist, but also not letting that destroy the potential for a happy life. How do you deal with that?

ZAUNER: I don’t want to talk about it too much because I don’t want to jinx my reproductive health—it may very well be a challenge for me—but I was just envisioning what that world would look like. It’s so enticing to me because I almost feel like it’s the only way that I’ll be able to slow down.

LIANG: I literally said the same thing to Dorian all the time when I was pregnant.

ZAUNER: I mean, we both have amazing jobs. I don’t want to not do it all, because I’ve dreamed about this life for so long. But I’ve also completely sacrificed my personal life. As I get older and I’m running out of time to have a family, it’s like, “Well, I can’t do this forever if I want both things.” I’m not worried about being a bad mother; I’m worried about losing myself so completely in that role and not being able to find a balance. Do you feel that way? Is time away from your son painful for you or is it liberating?

LIANG: This last collection I did was my first with Rainer fully out.

ZAUNER: Did you consider skipping a collection? It seems crazy to me that you kept up with the calendar.

LIANG: I kind of just decided, “I’m going to try and get pregnant and then it’s going to happen whenever it happens, and I’m not going to let anything keep me from doing that.” I was delusional because I was like, “Oh, two weeks after having a C-section, I should be able to start joining meetings and doing fittings again.”

ZAUNER: And did you?!

LIANG: I did, and it was insane. I would never do it again. It was all because when you are your own brand, and your brand is your livelihood, it’s something you care passionately about. You’re Japanese Breakfast, so when Japanese Breakfast is doing well, you feel great. And when it’s not doing well, you probably feel a little bit shitty about yourself. How do you even avoid that?

ZAUNER: It’s an interesting question. I’ve been doing Japanese Breakfast for nine years. This will be my fourth album, and I would say that every single record I’ve made has been more successful than the last, and I live in constant fear and anticipation of, “When will I plateau and when will I begin to decline?” I don’t want to say this in an interview, but I keep thinking this is this one.

LIANG: I completely understand. 

ZAUNER: And I think in some ways, when I arrive at that plateau, it will be both devastating and completely liberating.

LIANG: Yes.

ZAUNER: I don’t try to make art with that in mind. I try to just make art that I’m interested in and accept that whatever’s going to happen is going to happen. But I do think that this record is much more subtle, much more intricate, and much more introverted than the last one.

LIANG: At the end of the day, as long as you’re putting something out there that you are proud of—which is such a complicated question because maybe the exterior success does make you happy inside.

 ZAUNER: Of course it does. Isn’t it the best when you made something that you love and the culture warmly embraces it?

LIANG: Yeah. But then you ask yourself the question, are you chasing recognition or an album that you’re proud of? Or for me, a collection that I’m proud of. I’ll have really bad days where sales are down, or we got bad feedback from a buyer or whatever, and I’ll look to Dorian and be like, “What’s my next move going to be when I don’t have Sandy Liang anymore?” Sometimes I’m excited to think about that. Because we are our brands and our brands are our livelihoods, we face this pressure every single day to deliver. It’s so freeing to think about not being in this cycle.

ZAUNER: Totally. I always think of Björk albums in terms of a career and trajectory. You have Debut, where it’s just this very raw introduction, and then you have Post, that’s a refinement of that sound. And then you have the really big third album that’s everything that you have to offer as an artist in its loudest, most extroverted self. And then I think of her fourth record, Vespertine, which feels like this very delicate, intricate artist’s-artist record. And that’s sort of where I’m at in my career.

LIANG: I feel like I had so many questions lined up for this interview, but you’re so conniving and smart that you kind of just took over and made me talk to you instead. [Laughs] Do you still fully live in Korea?

ZAUNER: No, I moved back in January.

LIANG: What?!

ZAUNER: Yes. I came to your show, but I didn’t get to see you. I only saw Dorian and Rainer.

LIANG: I knew you were at the show, but—

ZAUNER: I’m fully back. It was hard for me, but I was flung into album promotion mode so quickly that I didn’t really have time to mourn the year I left behind. It was kind of like a sabbatical. I went to learn Korean and work on my second book. I just needed some time off of music to fall back in love with that cycle again, because it can be a lot. So yeah, I feel well-rested and ready to take on another album and tour.

LIANG: I love that you were able to just go to Korea and live, and I feel like that’s something you’ve always wanted to do, right?

ZAUNER: Yeah. After my mom died, there was this weird subconscious part of me that wanted to become the Korean daughter she always wanted me to be. I went to Korean school when I was a kid, and my mom would speak it to me sometimes, but she was worried that my dad would feel excluded, so we just spoke English at home. I wasn’t interested in that part of my culture when she was alive. I grew up in a very white town, and when you’re a teenager, you don’t want to call attention to the things that make you different.

LIANG: Right.

ZAUNER: So I didn’t really regret not learning Korean until I was in my twenties. I was always curious: If I spend one year dedicating myself to learning the language, how far can I get with it? That’s what the next book is about—my year living abroad and learning the language and documenting that process, which was really fun.

LIANG: That’s so exciting. I cannot wait to get my hands on it. What part of the process are you at now?

ZAUNER: I’m in album mode, but when the calendar is booked up with shows and the band is tight again, I can start to find time to go through the journals and start piecing it together. My goal is late next year, but it’s also something I don’t really want to rush.

LIANG: For sure. Do you normally keep a journal?

ZAUNER: I don’t, but I did for the last two years. I time everything I do; it’s referred to as the Pomodoro method. It helps me keep a routine because then I’m like, “It’s just 10 minutes.” I wrote a journal every day for 10 minutes last year, and the year before that, and I have 500,000 words as a result. I also wrote a journal every day for 10 minutes in Korean, so I could look back at my progress. 

LIANG: Okay, first of all, I’m going to look that up because I want to do that. I love the idea of keeping a diary.

ZAUNER: Do you keep one?

LIANG: When I was pregnant, I was good about journaling every night because I was excited to talk about how happy I was that day. But since being a mom, any free time I have, I want to devote to something else, and it’s just not top of mind anymore. Anyway, I am also so happy to hear that you’re in New York, because now you’re going to come hang out and babysit Rainer.

ZAUNER: I would love to. He was so popular backstage at the show, I could hardly get my time in, so I would love to come say hi. Thank you so much for doing this and being so open, Sandy.

LIANG: Thank you.

ZAUNER: Literally, when I saw that you were pregnant, I felt like I was given permission to get pregnant. 

LIANG: Oh, my god. Well, I wanted to talk about all this stuff because I have so many feelings about it, but I was really trying to keep my mouth shut and listen more, which I might not be very good at. But thank you for considering me for this. I hope you have fun at the antique shop. 

ZAUNER: Have fun at the mall!

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Hair and Makeup: Ciara Maccaro using Shiseido at Exclusive Artists. 

Nails: Michelle Tran at Saint Luke Artists. 

Photography Assistant: Brighid Burnes. 

Fashion Assistant: Emily Cancelosi. 

Production Management: Cecilia Alvarez Blackwell.