How MJ Lenderman Became the Poet Laureate of Indie Rock

 

There’s a particular addictive sensation had when listening to MJ Lenderman’s new album, Manning Fireworks, as you hear the 25-year-old singer-songwriter warbling nonchalantly over the twanging reverb of an electric guitar, breaking your heart over and over and over again. Lenderman’s sophomore solo album is for the sometimes-cynics, and its somber tone marks a considerable pivot for the artist, whose his breakout album Boat Songs was lauded for for its deft lyrics and punchy one-liners, plus its allegorical references to sporting greats (there’s one line in particular, about Jackass, which remains infinitely catchy and quotable). All this success has led to lots of attention: Lenderman’s developed a cult-like following on X, and he’s even been dubbed the modern iteration of some of the great singer-songwriters of decades past—think Molina, Smith, Oldham. But if the bizarre nature of rapid-fire fame has him phased, it’s not evident in his music or his demeanor. He’s just being Jake, writing and singing and what’s on his mind. Just before he unleashed Manning Fireworks on an eager public, he talked to us about lonely braggarts, making somber music, and the zen of Phil Jackson.

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JACKSON WALD: I wanted to ask you first about the formal relationship between Boats Songs and Manning Fireworks. Does Manning Fireworks feel like a sequel to you at all?

MJ LENDERMAN: Yeah, I think it’s a continuation of what I was trying to do there. The subject matter is pretty similar, just trying to grow forward.

WALD: There’s a pretty big shift in tone. It’s certainly a less happy album.

LENDERMAN: I never thought of Boat Songs as a happy album either, but it’s definitely more fun, and I guess the humor is more forward. But all that stuff is still there. I just kind of rearranged it in a way.

WALD: What do you mean by “rearranged”?

LENDERMAN: The songs are still funny to me, but it’s not as “to the front” as some of the older songs.

WALD: This one is more austere, or stripped back.

LENDERMAN: Yeah, for sure. There was a moment when I was trying to write songs that are a little heavier or faster, and it just never really felt right. So I decided to go the opposite direction, and that was more exciting to me.

WALD: When you’re writing, do you sit down and have an idea of what the song is about and go from there? Or is it more a process of journaling, getting things down and then molding it into something?

LENDERMAN: It’s the second thing you said. I just kind of write down little things over a long period of time and if something sticks out, I’ll work off of that.

WALD: Are you verbose? Or is it neat and tight?

LENDERMAN: It’s generally pretty tight. I try to rearrange and change words, but usually it doesn’t start out with anything longer than however many syllables I need.

WALD: Let’s talk about the title track, Manning Fireworks. What stood out to you about the song?

LENDERMAN: It was one of the last songs I wrote for the album. It’s just kind of a gut feeling. I felt like it was a nice welcome into the album, and it’s a newer type of sound for me. And then I just felt like the words were nice for the album title. Out of the context of the song, it kind of sounds like it’s a place.

WALD: I was 20% sure it was going to be about Eli or Peyton Manning.

LENDERMAN: I think a lot of people probably did.

WALD: There’s a distinct lack of sports on this project. Was that a conscious effort, or was it just not as much a part of your life during the writing and recording process?

LENDERMAN: Yeah, it wasn’t as present in my life as it was when I was writing Boat Songs. But also, hearing those songs reflected back at me, people really, really picked up on the sports side of it, which I was aware of and thinking about this time. I guess sports weren’t interesting to me anymore to talk about [in song] because I already had, and I never had the intention of becoming a sports guy. When I was putting sports in songs, it was always just a way to tell some other story, not like they were actually the important thing there. It was just interesting to see how people latched on to that.

WALD: Have you ever read the essay “The Heresy of Zone Defense”?

LENDERMAN: No. Who wrote it?

WALD: This guy Dave Hickey. I think you’ll just get a kick out of it, because it’s all about art and basketball and how those two interact.

LENDERMAN: I was really inspired by Phil Jackson’s book Sacred Hoops.

WALD: How so?

LENDERMAN: His life philosophy was kind of interesting. He’s Buddhist, and I’m not, but it was cool as far as team-building stuff goes and with playing with a band. Like, the way he used some of those techniques to wrangle in the egos of some of the most dominant basketball players of all time. So I started doing breathing exercises with the band before the show. It’s a great book.

WALD: What is the equivalent of the triangle offense for a band?

LENDERMAN: [Laughing] I guess that would be improv.

WALD:  I read an interview that you did with NME and you mentioned not believing in your own myth too much. What did you mean by that phrasing?

LENDERMAN: I think it has to do with when you do press like this, for example. The whole point is so that writers can kind of put together a story or a narrative as to what’s going on in my life and what my music is. And when you get that reflected back at you over time, and with fame and stuff, the harder it is to compartmentalize that from your actual life and who you actually are.

WALD:  I know that you go by Jake among people you know. And then there’s MJ, the artist.

LENDERMAN: Yeah, there’s a teeny bit of separation there, which I think is cool. And it still is my actual initials, but nobody really calls me that in real life if they’re a friend. I think that that small distinction is important.

WALD: Especially now, in our digital world, we have the buffer of a screen name, and then even the physical buffer of a screen itself. I know you’re not on social media anymore, but I wonder if that idea resonates with you.

LENDERMAN: There’s always a different version of you that’s on the internet, and you can kind of be whoever you want, which can be cool. I’m not really here to say anybody’s wrong for doing that. But it freaks me out to think of not coming across exactly how I want to, which is what I have control over in person. It’s not that you don’t have control over it on social media, but it’s just a different plane of being. It’s kind of strange when people who have never met you in person know about you and your online persona, because I feel like partially, as far as conversation goes, it’s easier or more productive to have face-to-face, nuanced interactions.

WALD: Something that recurred throughout the album, at least in my read of it, was this idea of faith, whether it’s in religion or relationships or life or romance. When faith eludes or tests us, how do we manage to either keep it or let it go?

LENDERMAN: That’s a good question. I mean, just growing up Catholic, that was always an idea. From the time I could understand language, faith was the number one thing you were supposed to have. I still have remained an optimistic person and a hopeful person. I have no idea why. I don’t really have evidence for why I should be. But maybe it comes from that feeling you’re supposed to believe something’s there. But also, I did, slowly over time, lose my faith in religion. I think there’s something similar between faith and hope. It’s an interesting idea. I don’t really know what any of that actually is, but I guess that’s why it’s interesting to explore.

WALD: Yet there are little bits of cynicism and irony on the album.

LENDERMAN: I do feel pretty cynical a lot of times. But I think in micro-situations in life, I tend to be optimistic. For some reason.

WALD: The director John Carpenter said something like, “I’m a short-term pessimist, but a long-term optimist.”

LENDERMAN: That’s nice. I might be the opposite.

WALD: On the song “Wristwatch,” are you writing about an Apple watch?

LENDERMAN: Yeah.

WALD: Because I think the idea that we are connected to everyone, and at the same time can’t be close to anyone, is really fascinating. I was wondering if you could elaborate on that.

LENDERMAN: To me, it’s like, a braggadocious, lonely guy. I think about Brendan Schaub. Do you know who that is?

WALD: The MMA guy?

LENDERMAN: Yeah, turned comedian-podcaster, who is credited with maybe the worst comedy special of all time. It was so bad that he quit comedy, but I think about somebody like him. He’s got all this money and zero talent and has just kind of failed and stumbled his way into this weird zone of success where most people at this point are just haters. I was thinking about a character like that.

WALD: It seems like you have an almost morbid interest with these dudes online who are just the worst possible iteration of dude. 

LENDERMAN: Those guys have so much influence over people like you and me, and people who are younger than us. And that’s really concerning to me. It’s just gotten to this point where anybody can have a platform. And if you say something confidently enough, then somebody’s gonna believe you. It’s pretty scary to me.

WALD: Have you thought at all about what it’s going to be like to play all the new songs on the album together in front of an audience? And how it might be different from the experience of performing Boat Songs?

LENDERMAN: I think I’m gonna keep the shows kind of the same. No set list, just reading the room and meeting them where they’re at. If they’re tired, maybe play some pretty songs, and then bring them over to the heavier songs.  I think it’ll be fun to be playing new material. We’ve been playing Boat Songs for five years now.